Having worked as a management coach for more than 6 years, Mads Singers is an expert on people management, team organization, and effective delegation. He now runs an outsourcing company and a consulting agency, where he demonstrates the most important processes in becoming a more effective manager.
In this episode, watch how he explains the DISC behavioral model to hire, train and boost your team’s productivity.
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Joe: 00:00 Hey everybody it's Joe Troyer and welcome back to another episode. I'm super excited for today. It's actually an early morning and recording this about 5:00 AM eastern my time and a and I'm up early to, uh, to talk and to chat with our guests. And, uh, and again guys, I'm super excited. So our guest is Mads Sorensen. So Mads is the management coach and owner of Mads Singers Management Consulting and also owner of Aristo sourcing. So, uh, Mads' expertise really comes into people management and building a team and hiring VA's and outsourcing and an SEO. And you guys know that, you know, we, we supposedly got our act together when it comes to building a team and hiring and outsourcing. And I'm really, really excited to have Mads on today because that's like, that's his true focus and that's his true core. So just a little bit about Mads before we bring him on. He's worked as a management coach for more than six years, uh, and he's coached people in large organizations, um, such as Coca-Cola and Shell as well as like, right. Small companies like, like, like ours. So he's also an expert in the D.I.S.C Behavior framework. And, and I want to deep dive on some of his management tactics and, and uh, and training tactics so that we can all take our businesses to the next level. So, uh, Mads, man, welcome to the call.
Mads: 01:20 Well, thank you very much Joe. And the thanks for the, for the very warm welcome. It's definitely a pleasure to be here and I look forward to share.
Joe: 01:29 Awesome, man. Awesome. So before we dig in deep and we start looking for the nugget, so to speak, can you give us a quick background on how you got into management coaching and kind of what you're doing today?
Mads: 01:40 Definitely. I mean, um, I went when I was even smaller than I already am. Uh, I was studying it and I was also very, IT-ish nerdy guy. And what happened was when I was 18, like I kinda quit my education and I got a IT job, which I thought was going to be life. Um, however, what happened with, with my first job was I actually got a manager and she was just, yeah, blew me out of the water. She will, she was so good. And like, you know, most jobs I've ever heard about people hated it and all that sort of stuff. But I saw the team, I saw how happy everyone was and that really made a huge impression. And literally within six months of starting at that company, I changed from wanting to be the IT dude to wanting to be a people manager, right.
Mads: 02:27 Because I wanted to make that influence on other people. Um, and, and I, I didn't like, I had no education as starting frantically. And I probably read a book a week for about 10, 12 years or so. Uh, so a lot of my knowledge was self taught. I paid for a ton of like seminars and events out of my own pocket initially. Uh, so I, I learned a ton of stuff. I eventually got into management. Uh, first I worked in, in Xerox, and then, uh, I changed to IBM later on. Uh, and a super, super great places to, to get a lot of management experience and IBM particularly, I mean worldwide, I ended up managing people in UK, Eastern Europe and Philippines and uh, you know, I've got a ton of exposure, so that was really good. While I worked at IBM, I actually started coaching people already. I started sort of, you know, I had some colleagues that was like, oh, I want to be better and stuff.
Mads: 03:21 I started out like that. Then eventually, like I've always been big time into networking. So I started coaching people from the outside and then, uh, all the time I just, um, yeah, you know, one step took the next one and one day I was kinda like, Hey, wait a minute, I'm, I'm working 60 hours a week for IBM and a, I'm doing 10 hours of coaching every week and the coaching actually pays me better. Maybe I should have stopped doing the 60 hours that I did. So that's basically it. That's basically how it started. And yeah, nearly seven years now, you know, cause it's seven years. So, and that's how I started out. And then ever since then, I, I moved to the Philippines and spend a lot of time and I started out my outsourcing business because I saw a lot of the people, a lot of them took news, I was coaching.
Mads: 04:12 They, they really struggle to find good outsource workforce. Right? So I started a outsourcing business as well. Uh, one of the key things that we find is that people really, a lot of online business owners, they aren't great managers, right? So what we're really doing is really trying to help them manage the VA's with them and take care of more the personal side of things. And you know, when people have personal issues and, but very often business owners don't handle that very well, which often means that problems with people not performing or people leaving and things like that, like that. So, yeah.
Joe: 04:50 Okay. So you've kind of bridged the gap, so to speak, between the outsourcers and the team and the entrepreneur or the visionary, so to speak.
Mads: 04:58 Exactly. And, and uh, today, I mean, I'll, I'll keep focused on the businesses we work mostly with from outsourcing. Some client is in SEO and ecommerce businesses. Um, again, I really love process driven things because they are generally easy to outsource. Right? And they're the sort sorta our, our sort of main business areas, but a, again, we have clients in, in pretty much any niche, so.
Joe: 05:23 Okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely want to deep dive on some of those systems and processes that you guys are running and the things you find, you know, all these businesses doing, whether it's e- comm or SEO and kind of the core things there a, but let's stay a little high level just for a second. So my team, when they were doing research and getting ready for, for us to have this podcast with you said that definitely they found that, that it seems like you're a little obsessed with DISC. Can you talk us through that and uh, and talk to us about why, what is it, uh, and, and why the fascination there, I guess, right.
Mads: 05:55 So first and foremost, I'm, I don't think I'm a little obsessed. I think I'm a lot obsessed with this, but besides that, um, yeah, I mean for me it's what made my management career. It was uh, I mean when I started studying and find it, it is the reason why I've gotten to where I am today. Right. Um, that that's a lot of personality and sort of behavioral models out there, right? Like my ass breaks is very common. And so on that, this thing about it, the, the thing that really makes DISC stand out is the simplicity of telling who other people are without them doing a test. Right? So basically like, like one of the things that I'm, I say it all the time, but one of the things I like is when some random dude I've never met comes in and sit down to me next, next to me in an airplane, I can generally tell him things about himself that he doesn't know.
Mads: 06:57 Right. And that is an ability that no other behavioral model gives you. Right? Like most of these behavioral model, they are always like, oh, can you take this 20 page test and then I will know who you are. But the problem is that first of all, people, some people don't know themselves that well. You're right. And that means that the, how they answer questions is very subjective. Second of all, particularly if you're looking at it from a hiring perspective, when you're looking at it like when employees feel they're getting evaluated, they very often answer what they expect you want to hear rather than what they really think. And no matter how much you tell them, that's not the case. That is how the human brain works, right? So for me and majority of cases, like when I get emails from people, I can get a, a simple email from people and that that can often tell you a ton about the personality, who they are, right? And the ability to really read people true natural behaviors is really so powerful because it tells you the motivations, it tells you how they want to communicate. It tells you like all of this good stuff, right? And when you learn to be able, I mean it takes a little bit of while to get into it, but majority of my clients, again, they learn to love it as much as I do. Right? And, and they, they really like from an interview perspective, from finding the right people, like again, right? Like
Joe: 08:28 different personality types for different types of jobs, right? I mean most people don't understand that. And I think the second thing with personality types is, and I'm sure it's the same for DISC, um, is, is, you know, as an entrepreneur, as an individual, what types of people or personality traits you work best with.
Mads: 08:49 Yeah. Yeah. And so the one thing I would generally say is I, I like having a good mix of people in teams, right? Like when I build companies, when I build teams, like I, I have a fair mix of people, right? But the whole thing is like, some people naturally breathe and dream about spreadsheets, right? And for some people they make no sense. Like for some people, even learning simple things like formulas and stuff can be really, really challenging. And, and the whole thing as a human being, if you want to learn to be exceptional, you need to learn to profit on your strengths, right? You need to push your strength or all these people that are like, oh, I'm not good at this thing. I want to learn it. That that's the road to petition, right? Like it's not, it's not the way to do things. Uh, yeah, there's certain things that the only one thing that I recommend all human beings to work on is communication, right? Because we all communicate and if you're not an effective communicator, no matter what other skills you have, that can bring you down.
Joe: 09:49 Yup. I would a hundred percent agree. It's kind of like diversification, right? Like why would you diversify versus going all in? So we can have that Combo all day. So let's say that people are familiar with like Myers Briggs, right? Like the main advantage, like I am, I'm the main advantage of disc you would say from the outside looking in like just highest level is being able to, to spot the traits in people and being able to understand like what type of person is, right, with where with Myers Briggs, you gotta take the, yeah, you're right. Like that 10, 15, 20 minute assessment in order to understand
Mads: 10:23 and, and also Myers Briggs, like you have so many like 16 personalities or something. Like with DISC, you're really looking at four areas that makes, but it's basically for, uh, four different areas that you need to remember. Right. So it's much easier to remember. It's much easier to learn. It's much easier to, to, to manage and, and really use that to, to yeah. To, to, to learn to read people.
Joe: 10:48 Okay, cool. So can you talk to us about the different types of personalities that are the different types that come through after you do the disc framework?
Mads: 10:57 Yeah, so I'll do it. I'll do it very high level, right. Because otherwise, this will be a fall podcast really quickly. Um, so, um, basically the, the, the four personality type that d, The I, the s and c, um, that Ds primarily is very competitive people, very goal driven, very, you know, Elan Musk type like I'll do whatever it takes to, to get there, right? So it's people who are very competitive. I mean, my wife is a great example when she's playing cards with her four year old niece, she will cheat to make sure she wins because she hate losing that badly, right?
Mads: 11:37 Like really competitive people, um, that they're generally very good at getting things done. Like they, they're often not the people that just read to read. They often read to learn something specific that they want to go and apply, right? If you're a high D, um, if you, let's say you want to start a podcast, you don't just go and read random stuff about podcast. You read specifically how to download podcast, et Cetera, right? So you have a very clear goal driven purpose with doing what you do. The I's is to sort of typical salespeople, right? They love talking. Anyone, anywhere. They love hearing the sound of their own voice. How is your day, Joe? Or my day is great, I'm doing this thing. Like they, they asked questions, they answered themselves, they love hearing their own voice, they love talking to people. They're really, really powerful with networking because they talk to everyone everywhere. They know everyone everywhere. And my favorite example is that they're the ones that in school they're like, hey Joe, you're good at math. Can you do my math job, my math, my math right. And you know that they're not generally not good at doing things themselves, which actually from a business and a management perspective is often a huge advantage, right? Because if you know, but, but realistically, right, the entrepreneurs target the one trying to do everything themselves. Whereas the high I's, they're very, very good at delegating and finding people. And because they know so many people everywhere, they often find good people for the, for the specific jobs, right? Uh, but they are generally mobile.
Joe: 13:12 I have a friend you would say as a very high I and definitely he's put together a great team. It's taking him a longtime, but he's putting together a great team and uh, he, he's an influencer, right? Like he's the guy, he's the connection guy. He knows everybody and he's just the deal guy. He's the one in the background and making all the deals happen. So it makes a whole lot of sense. Um, but I would have never have put the two together that he would be that, that, that right person to be the overseer so to speak of a business. Right? Because because of not manager, right. He's just good at connecting the dots
Mads: 13:43 that the weaknesses they often have. So depending on, so, so with DISC, everyone have a primary and a secondary personality type. So if you're really high I and you don't have any D basically, um, you, you often lack structure and organization and that would likely be the challenge for your friend right now. Again, if he does get the right people in around him, like for example, if he have a, a personal assistant or something who is super organized that can help bridge that gap or if he hire like operations managers of people around him who are the very different from him, that can really much, very much help bridge that gap. Right. So, uh, so that's typically the high I's. Then the, the, the high S's. They are there also people persons. Um, but they are much more that they're more introverted about it. They're more, you know, I would love for someone to come over and say hello to me cause I would love to talk to them, but I don't want to go and interrupt them.
Mads: 14:51 Right. Yeah. So you will always see them smiling. They're always happy, but they're often a little bit shy until you get to know them. Right. Um, these are the typical moms or the typical, ah, let's sit down and have a company cake day every Friday and I'll bake a cake. And they want to make sure everyone else is happy and they care a lot more about other people than they care about themselves. So that typical kind of nurses and that kind of profession, right? Uh, also amazing people in customer service because, um, yeah, I mean that's, that's, that's often a good skill set in customer service. Um, and generally, I mean, everyone says they're great human beings, right? Because they are, they are always nice. They're always friendly. They don't have enemies. Like they, they, they don't want to break any eggs and so on.
Mads: 15:41 Right? So that's typical S and then you have the typical C's, which probably bunch of your audience would, uh, relate to. So that's the typical developer, accountants, nerdy, Geeky, very detailed oriented people. Love numbers, love spreadsheets, love data, love not having to interact with other human beings. Uh, a lot. Uh, a typical developer, I mean, if you ask them for a phone call, they'll be like, oh, let's just do this. On the Skype chat instead, right. Like they're, they're often not very comfortable and confident when it comes to sort of physical conversations. Right. Um, so yeah, and, and they are generally, again, they're, they're generally very reserved. They're very, they're very, very, very logical people. Right. Um, they would often dress up in very dark calls like black or gray or whatever. They will often be like, oh, well I don't care what I'm wearing as long as it's keeping me warm.
Mads: 16:43 They, they are often, they often talk a lot if you talk about something they're passionate about, so they're talking about business and their business person, they will talk reviews that talking about gardening, they'll just shut up. Like they will listen. No, listen, information is great for them. Um, but, but they won't add value if you don't talk about it. And generally the fashion style of high Cs is generally pretty not good unless their passion is fashion. Right. So unless the one, one of the key things they're passionate about is actually a fashion. Right. Um, so that's, that's sort of very high level view of the, of the four personalities.
Joe: 17:23 Okay. So I'm assuming, you know, Myers-Briggs pretty well too, right? So they found that over the years, like I don't work with S very well. I don't work very well with people who have, who make decisions based upon feelings, right. For people who like go with their gut all the time instead of instead of thinking about things realistically and, um, making decisions based upon data and based upon numbers and based upon facts and instead they're using their gut and their feeling through the situation. So I've found in my own businesses that I'm having S around me is not so great, um, because, uh, that's not how I believe in making decisions and that's not how like the company culture I've set makes decisions. Um, so I found that S for me are just problematic. Um, your thoughts on that, right? Wrong and different. Like what do you think about it?
Mads: 18:19 Again, I would still have a mix of people. Like the thing is if you have no emotions in the business, what often can happen is that people get, forget, forgotten, right? Like, um, I mean the typical example for me is always like, I love restaurants, right? Like if you're a group of friends, you're going out to a restaurant, right? And the emotional people always say, oh, what the ambiance? Like what does the food presentation look like? Is it something I want to Instagram? Whereas logical people, you know, they're that going to be very like, what's the distance to the place, what the price of the food is, the food everyone can eat, et cetera. They are very, very logical. Right? And the same thing in business, right? Like a lot of the time business decision are better when they're logical. However, if you really need to bring people on board, if you really need to like be a very motivational leader, being able to paint those emotional pictures can be really damn powerful, right?
Mads: 19:24 Like from a logical standpoint, you'd say, oh, we have to hit this tight and we have to hit this goal. Like you can drive people really hard, but you know, the kind of leaders that, you know, paint up these big visions we going to take over the world. We are gonna build this, the best app in the whole world to, to change the life of millions and those kinds of leaders, they're often very more emotional, right? So from a management standpoint, it's different ways to lead, um, I would generally say there's not a right or wrong. There is different ways of doing things and I totally agree. I am also a logical person by nature and I sometimes find it really hard when people make emotional decisions. But what I've learned over time is, um, the people who make those emotional decision often burns true on the much more like, because if you make a decision because you're like, I want that, right?
Mads: 20:22 Like that's what I want. Right? Like an example could be company structure, right? Some people say, I emotionally, I want to build a company that's location independent. I want all of my staff to be able to work from wherever they want, right? That's not necessarily a logical decision because that doesn't necessarily logically make a better company, but that's an emotional decision. Now, again, it's not right or wrong, but what you actually lose, perhaps in productivity from doing it, you might actually benefit from the emotional benefit of being able to do that. Right? So that's an example where it's not always a right or wrong choice, Eh, and the emotional decision doesn't have to be wrong, but there's definitely some times where I get really, really annoyed when people make emotional decisions such as, oh, well it's a holiday and these people are very religious, so let's give them all day off.
Mads: 21:23 And you're like, well, what about all our customers who actually need support? Um, oh yeah, but I'm sure they can wait until tomorrow. And you're like, no, as this doesn't always work that way. Right. Great. You want to give your staff time off. But yeah, so, so definitely there's a balance. Um, I think it's important to have a little bit of both because again, if you do become very logical, what can also happen is you lose touch with people a little bit. Um, and particularly if you start building larger companies, you definitely want some people focus people in there who can, who can be that emotional support in the team. Right? And Yeah, and, and I mean, I, I guess from, from your perspective, like if people come up and tell you about the sick dog or a husband is not feeling well and stuff, you're kind of sitting in the back of your mind and like, who gives a shit? Right? And, and, and that's the way that's the way your brain works. And that's okay. That's you. Right. But the thing is sometimes if you manage larger number of staff, um, you need people who can manage those kinds of things.
Joe: 22:34 Yeah, for sure. Um, and I found just to that point that I'm not good managing big staffs, right. Like up to 30, no larger. Um, because at 30, I think, you know, between 25 and 30 and up, it becomes a very different skillset, right. Uh, and, uh, and I think things change big time.
Mads: 22:53 They do. And a, again, if you surround yourself with the right people, I mean, as an individual, you don't want ever 30 people reporting to you, right. Ever. Um, that would ruin your life three times. Uh, but, but again, if you, if you make sure you surround yourself with the right people and give them the ownership and the drive, again, theoretically that there shouldn't be anything wrong for growing bigger. But again, it's, it's tapping into and learning to let go, right? Because like naturally, you know, it's the first time we speak, but, but uh, not naturally. I'm like, you want to get into the details. You, you want to make sure people are doing all the steps right, right. And, and some kind of tendency of micromanagement sometimes. So the, the, the challenge can be that, uh, you definitely have to learn to let go of that. Now the question is, are you successful because of that? Are you successful despite of that? Yep. So that's a great question. And the thing is, you could probably learn a lot and you could probably grow a lot as well yourself. If you learn to tone that down slightly. All right.
Joe: 24:08 Yeah, for sure. 100%. Yeah, I agree with that. So when you're working with companies, you're helping companies or consulting, coaching people, um, what, what are like the fast start ways to get some wins with this? Like what would you suggest? Like here's how you use disc, like right now, like here's how to get the benefits or here's how to get the most, like what's the 80 20 that somebody can kind of grab and start running with disc to start getting some advantages from it?
Mads: 24:36 So the, the key thing for me is definitely around motivation and communication styles. So people, people are motivated differently. And I'll just try and run through the four different pillars again, right? So since we have a bit of framework, so, Eh, that these are very, very motivated by money and power, right? So anything financial, anything powerful, uh, cool titles, uh, more responsibility. Uh, that sort of thing really motivates D's, right? And you should smile. Um, uh, so that will really motivate Ds right? I's are really motivated by eyeballs. Like, if you have a company of a thousand people and you're giving out the award for worst performer of the year, Joe doesn't want to be on the stage but a high, I would love to be on the stage because they're like, hey, see me. Attention. I don't care why I gotta tell a Jim but see me, I'm over here.
Mads: 25:29 Right? I's again like that. A typical people, they would wear like a pink suit going out just to get attention, right? Like they don't give a shit why they get the attention, they just want attention. Right? And and attention is number one. Now they are also somewhat money focus because most I's realize the more money they have, the more attention they can buy. So again, if you buy a pink Ferrari, you get attention, right? So, so there are also somewhat money focused. Money is not really the important thing for them, but they realize what they can use money for from an attention standpoint. Right. They always have the latest gadgets. They're always like, they always have the latest iPhone and all that kind of stuff. Right? Then the S's don't give a shit about money. Generally. If you give them a financial bonus to triple their salary as a bonus every month, if they hit a certain goal, they'll look at you and they'll say, okay, thanks boss, and they won't give a shit.
Mads: 26:23 I'm like, money really doesn't matter to them. What matters is people in the team is happy. They work in a team where they love being, like I've seen several high S's that have had the opportunity to more than double their salary for getting a new job and they're not even interested, not remotely. Right. And, and that's really important to know as well. They don't want to get in front of an audience. So again, if you have an award ceremony, even if they've done really damn well, don't put them up there because they will hate it. They hate their attention on themselves. For them it's always about the team. It's always about, you know, the group, they don't want to be like the, they like to be told they're good people, but in private, right, they don't want their attention. And then you have the highest C's.
Mads: 27:10 Really, they don't give a shit if you want to. They're like, oh yeah, I did a good job. Well, it's my job. Why do you tell me I did a good job? Like they, they're, they're very logical about it. Right. The best way to reward Cs is, is I've given them a bonus. Like give them a bigger monitor or give them a newer laptop or something that actually help them become more effective, like new equipment or cooler. Uh, not a cooler, that's the wrong word for a high c, give them a better desk or a wider desk where they can have three computers. So, you know, that can work on two while the third one is processing or whatever. Right. But, but that sort of stuff is much more interesting to cs and, and, yeah,
Joe: 27:52 that makes sense. Yeah. So developers always, uh, bonuses are difficult. Like most of them don't care. Um, I found, um, if, if you find them the good ones, like they really don't care. Um, and so I always do that monitors and I'll send them another laptop and, you know, I'll upgrade their desk. I'll send them an ergonomic chair, like just stuff like that because they hang onto it forever and then you're on a Skype chat with them and you know, they're like, man, this thing's amazing. Like, and the, you know, they're, they're excited about it. So yeah, that makes sense. So, um, we talked about ss then. So how do we, how do we motivate the s's if all that they care about is the team around them so to speak and kind of the Rah Rah so to speak of how the team feels and how the team is. Because I've been there, I, I, I've, I've had the challenges of not being able to motivate an s whatsoever.
Mads: 28:46 Yup. You motivate them by team. So if you give them an individual bonus, they will not give a shit. However, if there's a team bonus and they are the reason why the team doesn't get a bonus because they are not performing, that will light a fire on them. Right. And if you help them understand and say, hey, if you don't perform and the team doesn't get a bonus, everyone else is going to be really sad. If you tell that to a high s you will light a fire, I promise you. Right. Generally, um, things like team events, like they love the social aspect that is social people. If you're like, hey, if we hit this goal as a team, we will do a get together team event or we'll go eat lunch or we will, uh, if the team does this thing this week, we will go and have a social thing that will motivate us.
Mads: 29:39 Right. So that I's motivated the social aspect by the team by by, um, yeah. Any kind of events, any kind of social happenings that super, super motivates them. Or even if you give them a bonus, right. Instead of giving them cash, like give them a, I don't know, like a weekend away somewhere with a partner or with their family or something like that will be a much bigger motivation to them than, than cash. Right.
Joe: 30:06 Awesome. Yup. That's good. Good stuff. Okay. That helps a lot. Excellent. So then you mentioned communication is the other kind of big thing that [inaudible] focus. What you mean by that?
Mads: 30:17 So communication, high D's don't really care how they communicate. They're looking for effectiveness. If it's more effective to grab the phone, they'll do it. If it's more effective to write an email, they'll do it. Right. They look for effectiveness, speed and just let's get shit done.
Mads: 30:34 High I's. They want to talk verbally. Phone, uh, voice like we're doing here. They, they want it. They wanted happening. Right? They want to see you. They wanna talk to you. For high I's, it's not about what you say, it's about how you say it. Right. And they're so keen on like the tone of your voice and all that sorts of stuff. Uh, if you send them a three paragraph email, expect them to never read it. Right? They might read the first line or the first paragraph, but like if you send them a huge email, then they'll never read it. If you send them a process update that their mindset. If, well, if it was important, I'm sure Joe would talk to me about it. He wouldn't just email me. Right. Um, so that's very much to high I's. Right? So they communicate verbally. At the high Ss is somewhat similar to the DS.
Mads: 31:26 The way they think is whatever you prefer. If you send me an email I'll read it because it comes from you. Right? Or if you, if you call me, I'd love to talk to you because I always have time for you. Right? Um, and the high seas are opposite of the I, they do written communication, right. Anything can be done to avoid verbally talking to other human beings is like an amazing thing right now. Knowing that also helps you understand how to be more effective with the different kinds of people. Now I still recommend actually forcing a high Cs to to do like a video call and so on to get to know them and establish a better relationship with them. But if you know that generally they prefer written communication, if you have to ask them for a favor, you might be better off actually putting it into an email. Then necessarily if your ideas in your case instead of just grabbing the phone and calling them because they will be not more comfortable with the emails that you can include more details. And it's much easier for them to revert back and ask questions because they generally will have. Right.
Joe: 32:41 Yep. That makes perfect sense. Okay. So, um, you talked about earlier your, your outsourcing company. And so, um, I'm curious, you said you're working with most mostly, uh, SEOs and e-comm companies. Um, are you helping entrepreneurs decide what to delegate and what tasks to get off their plate, um, or you letting them Kinda figure that out? Or what's the boundary there? Where, where, where do you coach people to, uh, you know, to, to get rid of tasks or how to decide or how to prioritize, et cetera.
Mads: 33:20 Yeah, so obviously in my coaching, I coach definitely coach people with that sort of stuff. Uh, with, with outsourcing, I obviously we talk to people right at generally with that outsourcing. And particularly if it's in the beginning, what I always recommend people is pick a repeatable processes, right? So what commerce things like customer service, um, like keyword research. Like I'm uploading content to a website or adding products or anything that's repeatable, right? Because a lot of people, they will hire VA and then they'll spend half an hour finding something the VA can spend one hour doing and yeah, that saves them half an hour. But it's constant. And what ended up happening if you do that is you spend so much time, like you still save time, but you spend so much time doing it that your time saving is a lot less. So I always recommend that you actually start by taking tasks that, you know, you teach them how to do customer service.
Mads: 34:20 They'll generally take your chunk of time, but then they can keep doing it all day, every day. Right? Like obviously they'll still have questions and stuff, but, but, but you know, it's like you teach them one skill and then it's something that happens every single day. Right. And from a SEO standpoint, that could be things like putting reports together or, uh, doing like SEO audits and things like that. Like stuff that's repetitive, right? Because it's where you get the biggest savings and it's where you put the least pressure on yourself. Because every time, like so often I hear people, I, oh, I have this VA for 40 hours, I need to make up some work for them, I have to find some work. And the problem is when you get into that situation, what happens is often you actually end up finding them work that doesn't make sense and isn't your priority.
Mads: 35:07 But people are like, oh, I'm paying this guy a couple of bucks an hour. I should be utilizing them. And I tell my clients to opposite. Like even if you only spent use of guy 30 hours a week, it's still a huge financial benefit, right? So what we'd like to do, what I like to suggest to people is to have some tasks that I call forever tasks. So that could be something like lead generation or for SEO, some kind of outreach link building, or they have a task that if they have nothing else, that's what they go do, right? And in a lot of businesses you can find tasks like that, right? But that gives you that freedom to sort of say, okay, I don't want to drop everything I'm doing right now. To go and make up some work for this guy. He have something or she has something she can go and do. Right. So that's, that's sort of my high level sort of recommendations in regards to that.
Joe: 35:58 I like that. Yeah. The, the forever tasks. Yeah. So, so often I find people, you know, my, my students, uh, making that fatal mistake of, of, uh, you know, giving themselves a part time job just to keep their assistance or VA's busy. Right? And it's, it's just like you said, it's like they have a half an hour of work to do so that they can outsource something that takes an hour and then, you know, they just end up in that spiral forever.
Mads: 36:26 And, and the benefit is if you teach people a bunch of these repeatable processes and the work for you for a while, what happens is they start understanding and learning things that when you have some ones off task actually becomes a lot faster because they have much more understanding and experience at that point. Right? So it's easier to actually start out with the repeatable stuff and then later on go into and, and that could be longer. Like that could be something you spend half an hour teaching someone to do something for eight hours. Right. But, but um, yeah, I mean that again, the more experience they have, w one of the things people always forget is how well they know their own business. Like, the thing is, if you've ever had a day job when you walk into a new company on day number one, you're like, what the hell is this thing?
Mads: 37:11 What's going on? What's it all about? What do they do? Like the thing is you can't just hire someone and say, oh, by the way, here's this task and you go do it. Right? Like, and so much that, that's where I see people fail, right? A lot of the time people, it's going to a crap reputation sometimes. Uh, and, and very often in majority of cases, it actually the people managing them that, that are struggling. It's not the VA's himself, I mean, yeah, VAs are human beings. But as I always say, no one show up to work to do a bad job, like no one walks into a job and says, today I want to do crap work. Right? So if people are not doing good work, it's often down to either processes, instructions to management like that. There's usually something behind it. Now, okay, there is people that you should never hire and have a horrible attitude and things like that. But hopefully your hiring process will help not bring those into the company in the first place. Right. So yeah.
Joe: 38:10 So with the outsourcing company, are you guys really like, helping, you're helping interface the relationship.
Mads: 38:17 Yeah. So, so basically what we do, our managers are responsible to handle everything personal, everything like, oh, my microphone isn't working, or my, my Aunt is dead, oh my, it's my daughter's birthday. And like all sorts of personal stuff we try help them with so that our clients only need to tell them what to do and how to do it. Right. So the clients, but a lot of people say, oh, well that's the main thing. But reality is if you've ever had employees, you will know how much time that, that personal stuff sucks up, right? So we have found it to be hugely beneficial. When we first started out, we were basically just pairing up VA's with, with customers, and we just found it so often. It never worked out. And we kept thinking, oh, we find the right people. But as soon as we started supporting with the people management aspect, uh, like I think the last three years we've had, I mean, we, we have over 120 people now and we have had three, maybe four people leave right in that period.
Mads: 39:26 I mean, that's, that's a ridiculous retention rate and at any scale, right? But the thing is, Filipinos generally are looking for stable income, right? They're looking for stable jobs. If they find it, they're generally very, very loyal. Right now, the time they leave is a either if they have a problem with you and they're too afraid to tell you, uh, like some time, and again, there's a Filipino cultural thing, but if you forget to pay their salary, they'll probably not tell you right. Until, like two weeks later. And they're like, ah, boss, you remember that thing you normally sent to me every month? I haven't had it yet. You know, maybe that's a mistake with my bank. And you're like, Oh Shit, I forgot. I'm busy. Right. But, but that's unfortunate. The nature. So often they, they tend to be a little bit timid in that regard. Um, but again, like if you manage them well, if, if you have good management experience, it's often the less of an issue. But a lot of people starting an online business, they haven't got a ton of management experience. Right. So, so for them it's really, really beneficial that they have some support.
Joe: 40:35 Yep. 100%. Yeah. I find that completely. And uh, definitely the Filipino culture is, is amazing. But, um, it has his flaws or drawbacks, just like any other culture. And I think you gotta you gotta understand it, uh, and you gotta deal with it. And you know, we have a Filipinos on our team that have been with us for four or five, even six years, um, that had been, you know, a part of the team working every day remotely, Monday through Friday, you know, for us, uh, for a long time. So a very, very good, honest, hardworking people. Um, for sure. But yeah, timid, timid, timid is a key or a trait that I would say is, is very normal, at least in my experience. Sometimes it's just like, if that's what you've been thinking, like, why, why haven't you just asked me that? Like, you know, two weeks ago, why don't you just ask, I would have told you. Um, so yeah, I agree.
Mads: 41:28 Even some of the simple things like, boss, you're not actually giving me a lot of work can be hard, but that's the kind of things you want to know, right? Like if people feel like they have much more capacity and stuff that, that's great to know. Right? Like, sometimes, as I say, like again, what'd you pay for these VA's like the focus should not be get 40 hours out of them. Like even have training stuff and have some training courses they can take when there's downtime and stuff is hugely beneficial. Right. Um, but, but, but again, if, if you are busy and if you think they're busy but they actually have more capacity, you definitely want to know.
Joe: 42:07 Okay. Yep. 100%. So, um, when when we were doing research on you, um, and in your academy you say that, um, on high level skill is not the most important thing to look at when assessing candidates. Can you talk about that a little bit and tell us why?
Mads: 42:24 Yeah, so and, and it obviously depends a little bit, right? Like for example, if I'm going to the hospital and getting a surgery, I'll prefer to have someone that actually knows what they're doing. But in general, from majority of Internet business, most things aren't too complicated, right? Like when you're looking at SEO, when you're looking at, at ecommerce, like majority of the things are uncomplicated to learn. So like our focus is always making sure we find people who have amazing mindset and attitude because the actual skills can be learned. Now exception, if you're looking for a developer, you probably want someone who has some development experience, else, it's gonna take them a long time to figure it out, right? But you still want people with great attitude and mentality. But, but for me, like attitude and mentality trumps everything, right? Like you always want to find great people.
Mads: 43:17 And when you find amazing people, honestly, like I don't care what skill set they have because they will learn things really quickly. Like if they're eager, if they're, if they're like, you know, if there's something they don't know when they opened youtube and they're try and figure it out by themselves and stuff. Like if you get great people like that, um, it's, it's worth two or three skill. Very skilled people who have a shit attitude or you know, uh, like one of the things that we, we stopped hiring from, uh, the best university that there is in the, in Davao city where we are simply because like a lot of the people come in from there is very privileged, right? They are very, like they often have rich parents, they come in and they're like, they are expecting a huge pay and they expecting like so far their life have been pretty easy, right?
Mads: 44:02 Because often with rich families, you know, they don't necessarily have so much pressure and, and we've had so much bad experiences whereas out at any day, like English skills, obviously critical, but I would any day rather hire someone with good English who really wants to write. Like a lot of the people we hire have no education. Like it's people who haven't had the financial resources to get a good education, but they're, they are so eager, right? Like they're so eager, so willing. Like they will, they will do what it takes because when you give them the chance, when you give them an opportunity and you teach them things, they first of all, they get a chance to make a living in a, in a very good way. And, and they're often so, so thankful for that, that I mean they'll go to hell. Right. Um, and, and for me, that's worth so much more than someone who have had a four year education and whatever it is.
Joe: 45:01 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I completely agree. For me and in my business, um, as an agency business as an info and training business as well and software company, um, I find that there's really only like three kind of specialties that, that we have. Um, and the rest can be kind of, we, we hire for attitude and we hire for, for that definitely above everything else. And so I wanted to, to share these three with you and get your feedback and see if you think that there's any others or maybe if I'm overthinking it a little bit. So for us, like a high end writer, like if we're going to be writing content and showcasing our brand or showcasing one of our client's brands, um, when the, like the run of the mill, so to speak, won't work like that for us as a specialist. Right. Um, like if we're going to go pitch, you know, Forbes or CNN or even one of our own industry publications on a piece of content, and I'm not gonna write it, right? It's going to have to be somebody that's gonna represent my brand, you know, our customers' brands. Well. Um, and then second is, uh, is, is designers, right? Um, and then third would be developers.
Mads: 46:08 Yeah. Yeah. So I would say those all for you where you need to have definitely A level of it, right? Like, for example, with writers, with designers, like they might not be there already, but they might be here so that they, they might still need some learning, but yeah, definitely you want some kind of skillset, right? Uh, no, no doubt. Right? So, uh, and that, that makes total sense to me.
Joe: 46:35 And even like, um, we hire writers that aren't here though. Um, but we understand that they're not there and maybe they will get there over time, but we don't put them in situations where we expect here.
Mads: 46:46 Exactly. Right. So I mean that's one of my favorite things. Like we hire a ton of interns both really to test people out and see, because I mean you, you can see a bunch from interviews, right? But, but there's no better, there's no better test of fire than actually getting people in and like getting to see how they, do they show up on time every day? Are they eager? You know, are they sitting like a, what's the next thing I have to do? And oh well I was here eight hours today so I should get paid. And you know, like you can very quickly see that when you see people working, right. And you can see who's smart and I mean we, we love hiring a lot of these sort of homebased computer gamers who have never done anything on playing computer. And the reason for that is they are often super freaking fast, right? Like using keyboards, copy pasting, like not that that's a skill in itself can be basic, but you know that the speed of with where you do things on a computer definitely have something to say with a lot of the work that gets churned out in the online world. Right. The faster you are with a computer, the better.
Joe: 47:52 That's interesting. Yeah. Some of the, thinking about some of the best like developers that I've ever had as well. A lot of them have been gamers and like their speed is just ridiculous. Like they know every shortcut and I'm like, what? What did you just do? They're not like, oh that's this shortcut. And I'm like, what? Like I never heard about them. Like okay, thanks. Like that's great.
Mads: 48:15 And that's it. That's exactly like the gamers that it's using keyboards using shortcodes, using like the speed at which it happens. Um, like we, we, for our clients, like we, we do a lot of manual stuff. Like that could be things like outreach and you know, finding like research and stuff and the like, the speed they, they using the computer at makes a huge difference to the output, right?
Joe: 48:40 Yep. 100%. Cool. So, um, when, when you think about disc, um, how do you think DISC really applies to management? Let's say somebody has a team right now, like what, what are the big things you said obviously communication, but what are the other big ways that they should be thinking about using disc when it comes to managing an existing team?
Mads: 49:05 Um, I mean for me the key thing is the right people for the right job, right? So I can utilizing people's strengths and figuring out what are they naturally really good at. Uh, some people, some people naturally will be really good with excel. They just never learned the app. Right. Um, and, and being able to see the difference between who could learn it and be really good and who will never learn it and always be shit, always be not so good, uh, makes a huge difference. Right. Huge huge difference
Joe: 49:38 100%. So we were talking about hiring people and you mentioned that you were hiring a lot of people and then getting them into a job role and then seeing how they perform and how they do before kind of making a longer term decision. Is that how you guys typically hire? Is that how you like to hire?
Mads: 49:55 No, uh, we, we, we do both. So, so actually the reason why we do the internship is we work with a lot of organizations locally in the Philippines where we are, who do like different virtual assistant training and stuff. And we liked giving people a chance to come in and do like an internship and see like what they're like, right. Because again, if, if we see a group of 20 or 30 people, there's likely to be one or two really, really amazing people in there. Right. And, uh, and that gives us an opportunity to sort of pluck some cream of the crop. Um, but, but majority of people we hire is more interview based. Right? Like more a recruitment base. I, yeah.
Joe: 50:34 Okay. So when thinking about disc, do you think that you can take the disc principles and use them not only for team members, right, but use them when prospecting or dealing with prospects or dealing with clients? are you teaching your team disc, right? Like is, I guess I'd like to turn this thing around. Yup.
Mads: 50:54 I mean, we, I've been training a lot of sales people, like close sales people to be able to use DISC is super powerful because again, most salespeople have their way of doing things and if they're talking to people like themselves, that's great, but sometimes they need to adjust, right? Like most high Cs, when they see a typical sales person, they cringe. They're like, oh, this guy's just blabbing. He doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. He said, blabbing. Right. Uh, and, and, and as a sales person, if you're not able to connect to the customer like that, you're losing a sale, right?
Joe: 51:29 Yep. 100% and the same with management. Yeah. Yep. Readjusting your approach with DISC could make a whole lot of sense for sure. Awesome. So we've covered a lot so far and man, you've been, uh, over delivering and giving a ton of value. Thank you. Um, what, what have we missed? What do you think that we've missed that potentially we need to, to chat about before we wrap this thing up?
Mads: 51:54 Um, I can unfortunately it's only a one hour show, but, uh, um, yeah, I think, I mean my, my, my favorite thing in the world is to talk about from a coaching perspective as delegation, right? But I think unfortunately we're, we'll have to do that on all the time, but uh, but um, yeah, I would say generally for people really, um, learning to utilize the power of other people is, is really critical, right? And learning to do that. Well, if you're an online entrepreneur and you're the one of them doing everything yourself, yes, you can make money. Yes, you can make pretty good money, but if you want to build a business that's very, very different skillset. Right? And actually like where I see most businesses go wrong is like they would invest in training courses for the people to learn SEO, learn ecommerce. But no one actually invest in management.
Mads: 52:49 Right? And just as you said in the beginning, oh, we've never had anyone who does management. And, and that's what I see everywhere. Like people get promoted all the time into a position of management, but there's no training being done for them. Right. And that's why I mean, initial that's why I had developed a course specifically for managers because this is so powerful for companies to be able to actually give to their employees. Right. And the management course I developed was really tied toward business owners and, and, and also the managers within those businesses who, who gets that step up. And it's like two, two minutes ago I was doing this job. Now I'm the manager. And that's not the same thing, right? It's two very different things. And actually investing both the time and the resources into really giving people and giving your managers good training pays off like wildly compared to buying them and other SEO course or whatever you're doing. Right. So
Joe: 53:48 that makes a ton of sense. Okay, cool. So last question then instead of asking you to recommend, you know, uh, the, uh, book or three books at the end, like most podcasts do, right? I want to do something a little different and I want you like what's the one book that you can look at and you can correlate to having the biggest impact on the way that you do business?
Mads: 54:14 Um, it's called first break all the rules, what the world's greatest managers do differently. And it's a book by, um, uh, what's his name? I think it was maybe Marcus Buckingham, my, I can't remember the name of the author, but it's called first break all the rules, what the wealth made us managers do differently. And what that really taught me was like, I'm not a typical, uh, manager in a large organization like IBM. Like most managers and IBM are, uh, you know, very driven, very similar personalities who yourself, like Barry, Right? And it really helped me understand that like, even as an entrepreneur, like you don't have to be like Steve jobs or Elon Musk. The whole thing is actually trying not to be liked them. If you're not, the whole thing is to be going out. What is your key strength from a management standpoint, what are you really good at and how do you, how do you become the best manager with that as your forte. Right. That's, that's really the, for me, the big, big thing, right. So, and that's really the, that's really the book I would say that makes the biggest difference. I mean, uh, from, from a learning perspective, disk was definitely it, but this was the book that really helped me get a good understanding that I really, that was really, really valuable for me.
Joe: 55:41 Awesome, man. Thank you. Great Resource. Definitely. We'll be checking out that book a, I appreciate that. So Mads, ah, in the show notes, uh, I want to link up to the places that are important for you, right? Like where can people go and communicate with you? Um, obviously we'll link to Aristo. Um, where else should we be linking to for you in the shownotes?
Mads: 56:00 Yeah, on my management side, madssingers.com, and that's all the, where I have my management course, which is a really popular, uh, then Arista sourcing is good. And then, yeah, I mean I'm, I'm generally on everywhere, so I have a Linkedin, Facebook, all the social channels and stuff. Um, uh, yeah, I love talking to people. I love helping people love connecting. So networking is key.
Joe: 56:24 Awesome, man. Thank you so much for coming out, man. I really appreciate it again, and maybe we'll have to do it again in the future. We can actually get into some of the other delegating stuff.
Mads: 56:34 Sounds exciting. Thank you very much, Joe. Pleasure meeting.
Joe: 56:37 Hey, thanks so much, buddy. Have a great one.Mads: 56:40 You too.