Joe Troyer 0:54
Hey everybody it's Joe Troyer, and welcome to another episode of show me the nuggets. Today, I got on Anthony Devine, who's no stranger to this whole internet marketing industry. Thing, Anthony, you probably been along as long around as long as i have maybe even longer we'll find out in a second. For those of you guys that that know, Anthony, he's the or don't know, Anthony is the founder of E, digital wave and law firm rep.com. He's been in business in the space for about 20 years. I know I've had the the opportunity work hand in hand with Anthony a few times. And I'm really excited to have him on today. Welcome to the show, Anthony.
Anthony Devine 1:47
Thanks a lot, Joe, more than happy to be here today.
Joe Troyer 1:49
So super excited to really focus in today and chat about reputation, which seems like is a huge focus for you today. Before we get too deep, or I make too many promises. Let's talk a little bit about your background and how you ended up here today. And then we'll zoom in on reputation.
Anthony Devine 2:08
Okay, yeah, that sounds good. Thanks, Joe. Um, yeah, I get into online marketing back as early as 1999. But didn't make any money back then, of course. But I always had an interest in X, I was always interested in electronics and technology as I was growing up. And I was working full time actually in commercial London at the time, and just kept on going back to my computer when I had, you know, my free time and just tried different things to learn how I could get into online marketing. So I know I wanted to be my own person, I didn't want to have somebody else making decisions, what I was doing on a daily basis. And I don't like taking direction to all so I wanted to be the leader versus a follower.
And so through trial and error over several years, I finally kind of hit my stride and online marketing in actually started making money through information products. That's how I actually started out. And through the through that process, I'm sure a lot of people know about like Warrior Forum or warrior plus, as well as JVZoo, I was involved in those probably did 20 Plus launches, did another 40 Plus products, it privately through my own list over the years, and ended up focusing on local marketing, as everybody would call it back then, because of my background in commercial lending, during that time, I had a lot of referral sources, including CPAs and law firms. And so as I started develop my local marketing business, I decided to focus on law firms, because I just knew I wanted to take one niche and go real deep into that niche, because that's all you need is one vertical to have success.
And so it was just kind of a natural transition. And I kind of had a little cluster of lawyers that I knew and started, hey, I'll do some stuff for you for free or dirt cheap, just to see, you know, what I can do for you. And that's kind of really how I got started into doing local marketing over the last 1012 years now.
Joe Troyer 4:18
Yeah, no, I mean, I think if anybody's been in this space for long enough, you know, and watch some of those product launches over the years I'm sure they saw probably saw your name or were one of your customers. I know that that I was definitely a long time. So that's really interesting. So you got to near the law firm niche because you wanted to go deep right? And it was it sounds like something maybe you were comfortable with. And you had some some connections there is that right?
Anthony Devine 4:46
Yeah, that's definitely the case. I had the connections I had the experience of of speaking in lawyers, I knew the lingo. I knew, you know the terminology the acronyms that they use, so made a very easy transition, especially with already You know, having known, you know, 2030 law firms, it was just a kind of an easy springboard, kind of a no brainer for me to go that route. I could have went the accounting route, but I just saw law firms as a better opportunity for myself. And the one thing, of course, is they with their lifetime, you know, the average client lifetime value, I knew that, you know, it wouldn't take me very many clients in order to start building, you know, my own revenue. And so that kind of made a no brainer versus Hey, let's go after restaurants or dry cleaners or something like that.
Joe Troyer 5:33
Yeah, makes perfect sense. Big Ticket big need, obviously, doesn't take a whole lot of customers, probably even one customer, and they're getting a crazy return on investment, I would assume. So. Yeah. I mean, makes a lot of sense from a niche selection standpoint, or vertical selection standpoint, if you will.
Anthony Devine 5:50
Yeah. I know, a lot of people don't like lawyers. And sometimes I don't want to get hurt. But I certainly more than paid the bill. So I can't complain.
Joe Troyer 5:57
Yeah. 100%. So I'm really curious, like, fast forward to today. You know, you and I have had a relationship for quite a few years, I would say, you know, going past five years, maybe eight years even. And I know that you've sold quite a few services, it seems like over the years to to lawyers, right? Your agency has ebbed and flowed and, you know, kind of changed over the years. I'm really curious. And and obviously, every agency has this market move so fast. It's always evolving, right? If we know one thing, it's that this market is always going to evolve and change. I'm really curious like today, we were talking about before the show, like why why your agency has transitioned into rep, and why it's such a no brainer. But I'm curious if you could share with the audience, why today you're focused on reputation and kind of bring up some of those points we were talking about earlier, before we hit record?
Anthony Devine 6:53
Sure, sure. Well, you know, the reputation it really touches upon anything and everything that I do within my agency, and not the words, all the other services, if you don't have a reputation, you know, a law firm is going to have a very hard time to compete. I mean, it's over 90, some, like 97% of people now read reviews. And it's, you know, typically, it's either the top or one of the top reasons why a potential new client for a lawyer or a law firm, they're going to use that reputation to make the ultimate decision whether to pick up the phone and call or email them or text them wherever the case may be, you know, that that's can be a make or break decision maker for the firm. So, you know, I could be here doing SEO for a law firm in rank 10.
You know, and I've done this where I've had clients ranked number one in Maps number one, organically, and the phone's not ringing, well, why isn't it ringing because they don't have you know, enough reviews, or, you know, they had a bad review recently, whatever the case may be, and then we focus on reviews, and all the sudden boom, the opponent starts ringing again. And so it's, it's, I like to call reputation when it's not doing so well for you, the silent lead assassin, because law firms don't know why the phone's not ringing. But most likely, it's because of the reputation when they're ranking you're doing all the other things right generating leads for them.
So even when they're getting leads, those leads might talk to him, but they're not converting because of the reputation. And unfortunately, most people are not going to tell them the reason and so they don't know so it's it's an education process, when I'm talking to prospects, even clients, especially my older clients, where I might have got them in on a higher ticket, which was you know, much more of a challenge to bring them in, you know, let's say SEO at 510 $1,000 a month where I can come in reputation as a foot in the door now. But you know, they're they're becoming more educated just as is the you know, individuals out there, the potential new clients who are looking for legal services five years ago is so much easier for generate leads and for those leads become clients. But as people become more busy, when COVID hit to, you know, all these different factors, the one thing we know is that people are paying attention to reviews and
I think it's 86% of people trust reviews as much as a personal recommendation from a friend or family member or even a referral source. So those reviews can be no be basically your pre seller can be a rainmaker for a law firm or any other industry for that matter. So it's it that online reputation is just is it's mandatory. Now it's not an option. And if you either as a business owner or law firm owner or partner discount or ignore it, it's gonna it's gonna burn you at some point
Joe Troyer 9:55
100% Yeah, that's that's some great points. I want to break that down a little bit in recap a little bit, just because you went so fast through it, you said a bunch of nuggets that I want to make sure we pull out. So, you know, you can rank in Google, right, right in the three pack, and in the map pack for your biggest, most competitive keywords. And if you're ranking in there in the three pack, and I've seen this myself over and over again, and your competitors have three times as many reviews as as your client, and they got a five star four and a half, and you got, you know, a three, or even a four and a half, and you have less reviews, right? If you're not the dominant player, right, you're going to suffer. I know that, like we helped a client, just be that dominant player. And what I mean by that is the go to the one that looks preferred, the one that has the most reviews and has kind of the best rating that people gravitate to. And we tripled their call volume by by getting them to be that go to brain, right.
And all it really was is setting up some automated messaging and some prospecting to to get reviews from the list. I mean, nothing groundbreaking. So I think you know, you're absolutely right. And if you look at the competitive landscape, right now, if you do a search on mobile, you know, all the ads are local service ads, are the whole pages like local service ads, and and the the map pack. And all of them have reviews, right? So like Google has, like really push this review economy. And if you don't have reviews, and everybody else does, what do you think's gonna happen?
Anthony Devine 11:29
Exactly? Well, we, whether it's mobile, or desktop, when you do a search, for example, Los Angeles personal injury attorney, the three pack, you know, comes up after the Google PPC and the local service ads. And when people get to the map pack, what's going to stand out first are those stars. And then if everything is being equal, I tell my clients and prospects, hey, we just want to get you into the top three, because then you can differentiate yourself with your reviews. And that can be the deal maker or breaker for you.
And so that's why it's so critical, like you said to have, you know, the overall review rating, and it's great to have a five but if you have a five, and then four reviews, and then another law firm has 4.7 and 150. What do you think they're going to call on I tell them just put yourself in the shoes of your potential new clients? If you did the search, you looked at the results, who would you call in and get some really thinking about it, you know, put some puts put some in the shoes of their potential clients. And that helps out to, for them to really understand how important reviews are in 2022. And going forward. Yeah, 100%,
Joe Troyer 12:43
you, you said something else interesting data that like, all that I want my clients to do is be able to get in the three pack, right. And I agree, like, I don't care if I'm number one, number two, or number three, as long as I have the reputation that stands out and look like the de facto expert, we're going to get all the call volume, it doesn't really matter, in my experience. But if you don't have the reviews, and you get in the three pack, you just did all that work for literally no reason. So if you're an SEO and or maps provider, and you're doing that as a service for your clients, and you're doing reputation, like what would you tell somebody like,
Anthony Devine 13:18
you really don't want to serve us at that point, because it's great to get the rankings. But that's, you know, that That's great from a window dressing perspective. But at the end of the day, if you don't aren't getting the call volume, or getting the visitors, whatever the case may be like that, you know, your clients not going to be happy with you. So you have to be I mean, to me, like I said before, it's mandatory these days to have that reputation to go along with what other services you're providing. Because the bottom line is any potential clients, customers or patients are going to go look at your reviews, whether their Google reviews, or you know, any other type of industry type of reviews, whether medical, like health grade, or you know, you know, Travel Advisor for for the hotel and travel industry, that type of thing. So it's just, it's critical. They really go hand in glove these days with with services.
Joe Troyer 14:17
Yeah, so I completely agree. I think it's it's a conversion element all by itself, right? We always talk about like, oh, sending traffic to a landing page versus the website homepage and what a difference it makes, right? Like, I almost equate the same two reviews, right? Like, it doesn't matter. It's a conversion lifter. If you do it, it's gonna work for all your paid traffic for all your organic traffic for all the marketing for the entire brand. It's a conversion lover.
Anthony Devine 14:43
Exactly. Yeah, I tell my prospects and clients that you know, with reputation management and marketing, you're able to improve all of your marketing campaigns, all your efforts, and overall you can take and generate more more leads more clients for less cost. And what I mean by that is you're increasing your return on investment because you can take your reputation and help pre sell your services and or products to your potential clients, patients or customers, wherever they call them. So it's just
Joe Troyer 15:20
a few minutes ago, you hit on something that that I think is really important with where the markets headed right now. And I think could impact a lot of agencies that have been having trouble landing clients, you said that you're really using reputation to get your foot in the door? And it seems like you you didn't really do that before, but you're having to or you're seeing success in today's market doing that. Can you talk about that? A little bit?
Anthony Devine 15:48
Yeah, yeah, about probably about four or five years ago, and all the way before that. I was doing literally 100%, cold email marketing, and I was selling high ticket. And four or 567 years ago, that was much easier to do. I had built up my own reputation, and they had testimonials and all that good stuff. So that helped. But what I started seeing, you know, probably about two to three years ago, it started becoming more difficult for me to do that. So I started branching out and other traffic strategies. And I just been so fortunate that I could rely 100% On cold email.
But in addition to that, I had to change the my approach to what I was selling upfront, or foot in the door, and as I was just alluding to a few minutes ago is that with reputation, it really fits together with any and every service that I offer, or I'll tell any local business or excuse me, a local agency owner, you need to have reputation as part of your repertoire, whether you have one, two or three other additional services. Without it, it's a disservice to your clients a disservice to yourself.
And so I transitioned over to 100%, my lead 100% with reputation, and it doesn't matter if they already have a five star reputation, a one star or they have nothing, I still lead with that. Because it's not just a one and done thing where I think many law firms in my experience, they go cow, yeah, I'll do it myself, they'll get a, you know, a blast of new reviews coming in, and then what happens, they stop, they get busy, they can't keep up with it, it's not a long term workable strategy for them, they just don't have the time or typically the manpower to do it.
And with automation today, there's no reason to be doing it manually. And so, you know, it's it. To me, it's an ongoing process with a reputation. It's not a one and done type of thing. And so I sell from that perspective, it's much more palatable for and easier for them to swallow from standpoint of cost up front. And it's also for me, and for them, we're not relying on, you know, dollar signs directly, oh, how many leads did you bring in? How many new clients that I get?
Now, ultimately, you know, reputation is going to help do all those things for them. But it's, it makes it much easier that we're looking at the results are okay, how many, you know, new Google reviews did I get, and you know, what happens my overall review rating, so it's a much easier sale up front, it's something every business needs these days. And so, you know, it just becomes part of your service. And if I was, you know, to tell any local, you know, agency owner, what they need to do is make sure that they're, you know, they have reputation, and I would recommend ease and Addison foot in door, because it is one of the most critical things that you can do for any local business.
And I know we I think we're talking before we started to its, you know, also from if you're doing SEO reputations, I believe the second biggest factor that Google takes in consideration when ranking, you know, local businesses, Google Maps, or their Google business profile, they want to say Google My Business anymore. So you know, it's critical that they have that reputation, because without it, I mean, It's sink or swim, you're gonna sink more often than that, if you don't have reputation taken care of on a consistent and ongoing basis.
Joe Troyer 19:32
Yeah, you said a couple things that I think are really cool. And I really agree with I mean, I think you're right, you know, the having a conversation with a client, you know, a month after you you start working with them and like they're like, where are the leads? Where's the return on investment? Show me the money it's like mad like, we just got started, right?
You know, it, it can. It can put you on the wrong foot, right starting that relationship. with a client, right, and you know, can put you in kind of an adversarial position. So I like what you said, like, if we get started with reps, I'm not in that position, right? When I sell reputation to start, I'm building the relationship, I'm getting them more reviews, I'm reporting on things that are easy for me to deliver, and they are going to get more results with it. I'm sure for you as well. You know, at that point, it's really easy to pinpoint. Who are the great clients gonna be? And who are the problem clients gonna be? Right. I love that.
Anthony Devine 20:35
Yeah, I was just thinking about, just to give an example, I have a Indianapolis personal injury law firm, came client about probably about four months ago. And they were interested in all sorts of things SEO and all this other stuff, lead generation, we have some automated lead systems that we have. And I suggested, hey, let's, you know, your reviews they had, I think at the time, they had a five star rating, but they had four Google reviews have been in business for about 10 or 12 years, something like that.
And I said, Hey, you know, we can do all that stuff. But you're not going to be happy with the results. Even if I get you ranked number one. And at the time, I think we I looked at two keywords just give an example or their rankings. So I had an idea. And one was like Indianapolis car accident attorney, they were like ranked 100 and 115. And then Personal Injury Lawyer, Indianapolis, wherever the case may be, they're like around I think around 80 or 90. And so within the first month, we got them about 60 or so, new five star Google reviews. So they went from five to 65.
And what was interesting, within two months without doing any SEO, they were in the top 20 for both those keywords. And that just shows you how important that is. And so guess what they get to know like, and then trust me, from the perspective, I said, What I you know, what I told him, I would do up front, we did, and it's easy to do with reviews, especially when you use automated systems. Now down they know like and trust me in now those other services, hey, this is what I think we should do next. And they're like, you know, send me the invoice. It was just there was no question about it. Now, if I went back four months ago, and said,
Hey, let's do all the other stuff, even though they're excited about doing all those other things, I don't know if I would have gotten the sale, if I didn't, you know, start out and really put their best interests first. And that's key. And reputation makes it easy, because that's, that's really, I tell them, it's one of their most valuable assets that a law firm or any business can have. It's the reputation like the intangible, or tangible however you want to you can see them but could be considered intangible asset, have to ask a CPA, but nonetheless, that is so critical to have that reputation.
Because that's what your potential clients, patients or customers, they're relying on that almost all the time when they're making decision, we're all too busy, people are impatient, they want to get fast results, you know, in terms of who they want to pick up the phone and call in, you know, alleviate their concern, their problem, whatever the case may be.
Joe Troyer 23:17
You said that map, you think reviews or reputation is maybe the second highest ranking factor. I agree. But I actually think it's the number one ranking factor. And whether it's reviews or directly like the number of reviews, right, whether that's the ranking factor, I won't argue or whether it's the click through rate kind of manipulation that happens because of the number of reviews. And what I mean by that is, you have so many reviews, you stand out, people are looking for the best, they're scrolling through the results, and they look at you and they're like crap, man, I got to work with that guy.
And they click through, right, because they're not finding what they want. I felt a few people, including my father's company, he actually just sold his roofing company. And they're dominant, like, they have like five times more reviews than anybody in their market. And guess what, they rank organically. And we've like, basically never done SEO ever for them, right? They've probably committed like the top cardinal sins when it comes to SEO, too.
They changed their website so many times and changed all the redirects their title tags, like having, like they've made a lot of mistakes, and will consistently rank in the three pack for most of their keywords without doing any SEO. And the only thing I could say is like it's just the reviews, it's that, you know, whether it's the click the click through rate kind of magic that's happening, because because of that, or whether it's the actual review count, I don't know, but I can see the effect.
Anthony Devine 24:45
It does really make sense. So if you really think about it from a common sense perspective, because who's better to tell you is Google better tell you because somebody manipulated through SEO to get ranked or you know what actual customers have said about a business, you know, especially when you have five times as many others. I think hands down, that's the most important factor. And perhaps you're right.
Yeah, I think I read I came on for it's bright local, or somebody says second biggest factor behind. I'm thinking of, they had to Google business profiles, number one, and but that's, again, everybody's opinion, nobody knows for sure. And you probably are right, just from my sort of from the My Indianapolis, personal injury law firm client, how I saw, just, you know, by us getting a batch of reviews and continuing now they do continue to grow their Google review profile for them, I expect it to go up. And maybe, hey, we don't have to do any SEO. So maybe I'll end up losing some money on that ground. But that's okay. Because we were doing some other things for him too. So can't complain.
Joe Troyer 25:52
Yeah, I'm sure you'll more than make up for all the grace crazy results, they'll want to buy lots of more things from you. Go. So in your experience, and in your industry, it's gonna range by industry, but what's working, you know, if you had to advise an agency on what's working for kind of the marketing message behind reputation, or getting your foot in the door to have the conversation about rep, what's kind of that headline, angle or angles that are working well for you?
Anthony Devine 26:20
Well, what's working well, for me is, is getting the word out number one to as many law firms as I can, and explaining to them that, you know, if you don't have your reputation, you have nothing. And it can take years to build your reputation, but just seconds to destroy it. And what I mean is one bad Google review, or one other bad review somewhere else, depending on the industry can be devastating. It can literally, you can have your phone ringing off the hook one day, and the next day, it's dead. And you're wondering why Well, the first thing, I always check our reviews that something happened.
And more often than not, there's a bad review there that the business owner may or may not know about, they should because they're getting automated, automated message. And I do too, as well for my clients. So that's easy for me to, to know, right when it happens. But, you know, it's really, it's takes years to build up your online reputation takes seconds to destroy it. But what's nice about it is what you can do is go in immediately and with, for example, our services and caught rapid reviews, because we're able to get up to 25 to 100, new reviews or more within the first five to 30 days working with us.
And it's really just a factor of determining factors, how many contacts they give us up front, and we immediately put them into our system. And they automatically start getting on pre scheduled basis, they're going to receive text messages and or email messages. And it's predetermined campaign over a course of several days. And, you know, by getting them in that system, we can get those quick results for them.
Joe Troyer 28:01
Yeah, 100%. So that makes sense on the messaging front, if you were to tell an agency, then, you know, as that foot in the door, kind of set up or offer what's worked best for you and type in terms of like pricing strategy?
Anthony Devine 28:14
Well, pricing is going to vary, you know, depending on the niche, but I can, I'll tell you upfront, I charge a one time fee of $1,000. For customization, as I call it set up licensing fee, initially, and then agents or excuse me, law firms will vary. So like a solo practitioner, and I vary by client, but a solo practitioner would be probably around $299 a month. And it depends on the number of violin, we're kind of expecting for reviews, but we can go up, you know, if we have a larger firm that has multiple locations, we could be talking four figures a month, because we're doing an on location basis.
So if you're, you know, when I first started out doing reputation, I think I was I was a couple 100 You know, maybe up front, per, for the one time setup. And then I've gone down as low as I think $99 a month when I first started doing it. And it's really gonna depend on the industry in the niche that you're involved in. And so if you're in a higher ticket space, you have the opportunities, and it's going to depend on that volume that expect to because you know, I'm not charging them for email, marketing software, or any of the text message costs, you know, that's just all built into our pricing.
Joe Troyer 29:30
That makes perfect sense. I think the pricing model makes sense. And as you said, it's gonna vary, but I think one distinction that you said is, you know, we're gonna charge based upon the number of locations or Google My Business profiles that they have. So that's really interesting because like, if you go into a multi location, and you just sell one location, right, you got an immediate upsell and you know, five days to 30 days whenever you can show the win, and they have that light bulb moment. Right very quickly. I would assume you can start To really stack your revenue and multiply your revenue,
Anthony Devine 30:03
Oh, definitely, definitely when I, when I do it, I offer both up front, hey, we can you know, and it's really dependent on the sales conversation, I'm having an understanding kind of where they're at, and just intuition and experience that I have whether I'm gonna say, hey, let's start with one location, or I get an understanding, okay, you have, say four locations, you know, what are your goals or objectives for each location, maybe one's just a satellite office that really concerned about the reviews, they do overflow work from the other offices.
And so it really it's dependent on each client has their own their own story or their own situation and what they're looking, you know, to accomplish. But yeah, sometimes I've sold, I think most up front I've sold is about 35 At one time, so it's very nice deal to have that. So 35 law offices, and start the reputation album, which is great.
Joe Troyer 30:56
That's perfect. And as you said, I think one of the other big things that I love that maybe we haven't touched on so much during this interview so far, is that like, this is all automated, largely, right, so we're selling kind of a SaaS service with a setup, right? And we're, we're making sure that everything continues to be delivered, and that they're getting the result. But ultimately, I would assume that Anthony, like your markup is very high, right? Like you have a system and you have a really good service, they're getting a great result. But ultimately, you don't have a ton of costs involved.
Anthony Devine 31:32
No, now the costs are very minimal. Most I'd say about 25 bucks a month on average. Now if it's a multi location firm, it's going to go up just in that has primarily is, you know, this to the text message cost and email marketing software, by course, I apply that over all my clients. So it's very, very minimal. And so the markup is 90, you know, whatever, 99% probably, you know, but I, you know, I guess I could price it lower, but at the same time, you know, it's the value that it provides the client, you know, it's extremely valuable in terms of not just for reputation, but for everything else they're doing. So it to me, it's, it's always a drop in the bucket.
And no matter what I charge for almost every law firm, just landing one client, they've got an ROI on this service. So it's not a very far stretch for them to you know, take that plunge and least test it out. And we do month to month only contracts anyway.
So if they want to stop at any point in time, so they feel comfortable in that regard, even if I had a yearly contract with them, we do offer annual plans to by the way, but you know, even with a in this goes for any other service of having contracts, 12 months, they want out, I'm not gonna hold them hostage, you know, that's just to me, it's not good business. And I know they're gonna turn into a pain in my neck, if, if they stick around, I've learned that over the years not to worry about letting go if there's bigger fish to fry,
Joe Troyer 33:11
for sure, I have the same philosophy. And I didn't, I didn't mean like you were doing something wrong charging that amount. And I want to argue like, at the end of the day, like if you sell a customer, like $99, or two cheap versus 300, or 400, probably going to get somebody that's much more interested invested and thinking about the long term. You know, if you sell too cheap, you really start to see or you sell somebody that maybe isn't that interested, but they're like, Screw it for 100 bucks, whatever, right, you're gonna get a lot of flaky yeses. And a lot of those yeses are gonna lead to churn.
Right, and not that interested or invested clients. So I think that, you know, you got to be careful on that front, especially if you're using this to build your business. Right. And, you know, it's gonna be reliant. You know, if you're trying to upsell them into some core package, it's gonna be reliant that that they're engaged. If they're paying 100 bucks a month, they're probably not very engaged. They probably told you, yes, it's out of sight out of mind, and they probably don't value very much.
Anthony Devine 34:14
Yeah, yeah, no, my my lowest is 299 for a solo practitioner. But yeah, when I just first started doing it, but yeah, you get you're exactly right. You offer too low, it comes commoditized number one, and then they're wondering, you know, how good is this?
You know, if it's too low there, you just wondered psychology psychologically, what your clients thinking, you know, like, Well, okay, well, yeah, we'll do it for 100 bucks a month, but at the same time, you know, is this person even even able to do it because I talked to reputation calm or talk to whatever, or whoever else and they're charging three 400 bucks a month, then, you know, there there can be a disconnect there. So definitely, yeah, I quickly moved on from that. I will say though, if I have a package services, I always know what I want to have overall.
And so I might sell it cheaper within that package. But that's just more more from a sales philosophy and not really looking at my over my overall ROI on the whole service package.
Joe Troyer 35:20
Makes perfect sense. So we covered a lot. And this has been really great. I do want to wrap up this section. So really talking about reputation. So just parting shot, Anthony, when you think about reputation, and what we've come and discuss so far, do you think we've missed anything that we, you know, would be remiss not to share with other agency owners?
Anthony Devine 35:42
Not that I can think of except to say, you know, it's, I think we've impressed upon the viewer, that reputation is an absolute must. And if you're not providing that service to your clients and your prospects, you're doing them a disservice. And so it's an easy putting the door for you much easier than trying to sell higher ticket offerings. And at the same time, you can prove yourself and get, you know, a complete stranger comes a client, get them to know like, and trust you within a matter of days, and it can open up the floodgates for you for any and all of your other services that you wouldn't have had if you came in at a higher ticket offering up front. Yeah,
Joe Troyer 36:30
completely agree. Good stuff, man. So I got one question. That's, that's different than where we've been. As you look towards the future, Anthony, and you look at the past, you've had a lot of crazy accomplishments. I'm curious, what does the future look like for you? Where do you see you go in as an individual, as an entrepreneur, and as your as your company, law firm rep.
Anthony Devine 36:52
I see myself continuing exactly what I'm doing right now, in terms of law firm rep offering, as a foot in the door reputation is here to stay, it's going to become if anything even more important as time goes on. And I'm really actually starting to pare down my services. And what I want to, you know, I'm thinking that my age now 55. And so, you know, I'm looking kind of next five years where I don't want to be, and I think, three to five years, I'm looking, I'm starting my exit strategy, click, quite candidly.
So I'm trying to position my agency where it's not reliant on me at all, kind of plug and play for somebody else. And at that future point, whether it's three, five years, or maybe even longer, who knows. But, you know, at that point in time, everything I'm doing now is to get me to that point. So I'd like to get there in three years, and then, at whatever decision at that time, or in the future, say, hey, if I want to sell, I can easily do it, here's the revenue stream, and you know, the reputation and it should be consistent coming in, and then with the other services, and the recurring income, just just to sell it and, you know, move on and travel. So,
Joe Troyer 38:12
I love it man, you know, really beginning so to speak, not the beginning, but you know, moving forward with with the end in mind. And, you know, you said something key, like, you know, if I decide to sell it or when, right, this step won't go in vain, right, pulling yourself out of this system, pulling yourself out of the process, you know, simplifying your agency, getting rid of some of the complexity are all things that are going to help you enjoy the next, you know, whether it be two years, three years, five years, even more profit even more, and be in the position when you want to be able to pull that parachute and actually exit.
Anthony Devine 38:51
Definitely. And the other thing I'm focusing on, I think about it is automation. You know, a lot of automated systems, whether it's called our automated lead system, it's, you know, through a chat bot, but we've we've got them set up is such that they qualified leads for, you know, all sorts of practice areas, and with reputation, of course, with our app reviews, software system. So those are really the two heavily reliant things that going forward I'm using but you know, what the chat system, we apply it to YouTube ads, and on websites and all sorts of different things, which is nice to be able to do but yeah, it's really paring down it and simplifying it not just for myself, but it simplifies it for the client. I mean, I can get them leads 25 different ways.
But why do i Why should I you know, as long as it's working, and what works best for us and for them, you know, is to really scale back and it just makes it so much easier. And what I would say to also to agency owners, is make sure you know, however you develop and build your agency, make sure at the end of the day that It's not reliant on you, you know, because that's gonna make the most valuable when you look, you know, the end game to sell.
Because if everything is running through you, and you can only do so much work yourself, but if the value is not there, and the revenues 100% reliant on you are close to it, it's nice, it's really, I don't wanna call the hobby, but it's close to home, because it's not going to be worth very much, if anything at all, because it's all going to fall apart. And that's what I like, what we're doing now is setting everything up, and to create the most value that we can, for when we look to sell at a later date. I love
Joe Troyer 40:38
that man, like we all jumped in as entrepreneurs to, to building a business because we want to be the leader, we want to have the freedom, you know, things like that. But oftentimes we end up just, you know, having a job and working harder than we ever worked and working more hours than we ever work. So So yeah, man, it's good to zoom out and really get that perspective. I was chatting with a friend and a customer of mine the other day, was it two days ago, and he works two to four hours a week in his agency.
And he's doing 30k A month in profit. His top line revenue is 40k. Right? So he's at what is that 75% profit margin. And he's got like, I think they sell two services. And it's just simplified, you know, beyond belief. And the the thing is, again, focusing on the end in mind, and he wants to just, you know, sit back and take it easy. And he is he's spending all this time with his family. And he's really made the most of his business. And he's in the perfect position to cash out today. I'm sure he won't, he'll probably ride it for quite a few years. But the point is, is that whenever he wants to pull that parachute, he can.
Anthony Devine 41:49
Yeah, definitely, definitely. One of the thing I didn't mention is with reputation, too, is that with the success we've had with law firm, Rob, I've actually tried to launch before we got here today, but we have velocity rev.com, which opens it up for reputation for other industries, we're probably the focus will be professional, but it's really, you know, when it comes to reputation, like said, everybody needs it. So that's, you know, to me that made, it's kind of an easy transition, we're not looking to offer other services.
And I don't have the time or inclination inclination to do that. But of course, once I get new clients that way, I might think differently, but you know, that's how much I believe in reputation is actually going wider on it from perspective, because we got a great service. And know we can help a lot more local businesses, in addition to law firms.
Joe Troyer 42:45
Awesome. Yeah, I love that man going going even wider. You've always been a deep guy. Now you're going wide. I love going wide, deep and wide. Forget one or the other. We're gonna do both. I love that man. So in parting last question. I'm an avid avid reader. And I always felt guilty, like starting a book, and not finishing it. But I've given myself permission to do that, right? Because sometimes it's just a chore I get into a book. And I'm like, Yeah, this is awful. I just, I can't do it.
And so I've given my self permission to drop books if they're not good. And I'm in the gym of like two or two and a half hours a day. So I'm grinding through audible. And my hit rate for good books is not very good. So when I have these podcasts with really smart people that that I admire, like you, I always want to ask, like, if there's one book that you would have to say, has made the biggest impact on you or the way that you do business? What would that be and why?
Anthony Devine 43:48
It's Stephen Covey. I know is the author and I hadn't written down I don't know where I put it. But it's a sevens, Seven Steps to Success or something. I can't remember the name,
Joe Troyer 44:01
unfortunately, only affected people. That one. Yes,
Anthony Devine 44:05
that and it was probably I read it. I don't know, many years ago when I was in banking. And that really propelled me into the way different way of thinking about success. And, you know, unfortunately, I'm not. I'm so busy. I don't have time to read myself anymore. Like I used to back in the day when I was younger. I didn't, but I have four kids.
Unfortunately, they're all grown up now. So I kind of got out of the reading realm, but that one did have a major impact. And there's other you know, I've picked up other business books and it quite frankly, I tend to learn I love to learn things, learn new things. It's typically frankly timeline. I go around, reading things online and learning new things that way versus picking up a book because I pick up a book or look at a book and I see something that's that thick Like, I'm not going to get through that, even if it's great, or it'll take me forever, because my wife even handed me a book recently about the Vanderbilt family.
And she's like, Oh, this was a great book, and she's watching Gilded Age or something on HBO, and bought the same time frame in the 80s, or 1880s. And, I mean, probably in the first month, I've gone through about 40 pages. You know, it's 1010 pages a week. And it's done. I mean, it actually sounds interesting, but it's just, you know, I always think, well, I could do that, or I could be working on my business.
Joe Troyer 45:36
I completely get you like, I'm not a great actual book reader. And I know that and I've went through stages where I've made myself like read books. I did 75 hard challenge a couple of times, and they make you actually read a physical book that was really hard. Yeah. I don't read that fast. And it's harder for me. But I have found that like, audio books do work better for me. And I don't always but I consume them a lot at the gym. And it does help me get through them. Because otherwise, yeah, for me to just sit down and block out all the noise and stop, you know, is very difficult for sure. Yeah, but
Anthony Devine 46:15
But I do agree from the standpoint of a book whether you're reading or audio, it's better than sitting down watching Netflix and mindless stuff. You know, if you're going to feel occupy your time, do something mindful for your business, or even entertaining books just to get away from business can still help your mind as well. Versus I guess you could argue TV does have but I just can't blast through a bunch of TV shows I get too anxious too much like Hey, I gotta I gotta be doing this, this that or the other thing? So very interesting, though.
Joe Troyer 46:51
Awesome, man. So in parting, we will be sure to link up law firm rep.com I think you still have pinpoint local as well. Right? Yeah, pinpoint local
Anthony Devine 47:01
is agency that I have. It just focuses in on my location here in the Bluffton Hilton Head Savannah area. So it's very localized. And just to help businesses, I don't, I'm not actively doing things. But on occasion, I've had friends, business owners have asked me to do some things. So that's what that's setup for. But we're not doing any type of you know, heavy lifting or heavy marketing. They're really my devotion is to eat digital wave law firm rep, and then the velocity rep.com, which should be launching by the weekend.
Joe Troyer 47:37
All right, well, we'll see if that's up when we launched the show. And if it is, we'll be sure to link to that in the show notes for you as well. And if somebody wants to reach out to you, personally, they got a law firm client, they want some help with maybe an attorney ends up watching this and wants to do some business with you. Or any other reason what's the best place like socially to get your attention?
Anthony Devine 47:58
They can either find me on LinkedIn or Facebook, or, you know, a W Divina e Digital wave.com. And my email 24/7 It seems so
Joe Troyer 48:10
well, thank you, man. It's this This interview was really, really great. I've been wanting to really go deep on reputation. And man, you really delivered. Thanks so much for all the value. I'm sure the viewers are gonna love it.
Anthony Devine 48:22
Thanks a lot, Joe. Appreciate it. Have a good time.
Joe Troyer 48:24
Awesome, buddy. All right, guys. Sign Out Joe Troyer.
